verbal noun vs. gerund

Question

Hi,I was looking at the LousyWriter.com website and it is written under its GERUNDS section, numbered 273:273. It differs from the participle in being always used as a noun: It never belongs to or limits a noun.It differs from the verbal noun in having the property of governing a noun (which the verbal noun has not) and of expressing aciton (the verbal noun merely names an action, Sec. II).The following are examples fo the uses of the gerund: --(1) Subject: "The taking of means not to see another morning had all day absorbed every energy;" "Certainly dueling is bad, and has been put down."(2)  Object: (a) "Our culture therefore must not omit the arming of the man." (b) "Nobody cares for planting the poor fungus; "I announce the good of being interpenetrated by the mind that made nature;" "The guilt of having been cured of the palsy by a Jewish maiden."(3) Governing and Governed: "We are far from ahving exhausted the significance of the few symbols we use," also (2, b), above; "He could embellish the characters with new traits without violating probability; "He could not help holding out htis hadn in returen." 1. Can you explain what it means by:It differs from the verbal noun in having the property of governing a noun (which verbal noun has not) and of expressing action (the verbal noun merely names an action, Sec II).2. Can you mark the gerunds for Example 1, 2, and 3 (expecially 2 and 3)?3. Can you explain to me what Example 3 is saying?

Ant_222 · Accepted Answer

«It differs from the participle in being always used as a noun: It never belongs to or limits a noun.»

In a sentence verbal nouns are used as regular nouns, with articles e.t.c.

«It differs from the verbal noun in having the property of governing a noun (which the verbal noun has not) and of expressing aciton (the verbal noun merely names an action, Sec. II).»

As I underrstand, a noun can be subordinated to a gerund (even without a preposition!). Here's an example of such subordination: «...without violating probability.»

As to expressing/naming an action, I don't know... Maybe this:

1. I like drinking coffee (the process of it)
(Gerund)

2. The melting of ice is an endothermic
process.
(Verbal noun)

« Can you mark the gerunds for Example 1, 2, and 3 (expecially 2 and 3)?»

There's a very formal rule: verbal nouns require articles (as any nouns do), while gerunds do not.

Gerunds:
1: dueling
2: planting; being interpenetrated; having been cured;
3: having exhausted; violating; holding out

«Can you explain to me what Example 3 is saying?»

«We are far from ahving exhausted the significance of the few symbols we use» — We haven't exhausted... There're still enough symbols and it's going to be enough for a long time.

«He could embellish the characters with new traits without violating probability» — ... He could endow them with new traits and keep them realistic, so that one doesn't say: "Hey, it's unlikely!"

«He could not help holding out htis hadn in returen.»

He could not make himsdelf not to hold out his hand. In short, "can't help" means "can not not to do something".

Anonymous · Answer

Ant_222«It differs from the participle in being always used as a noun: It never belongs to or limits a noun.» In a sentence verbal nouns are used as regular nouns, with articles e.t.c. «It differs from the verbal noun in having the property of governing a noun (which the verbal noun has not) and of expressing aciton (the verbal noun merely names an action, Sec. II).» As I underrstand, a noun can be subordinated to a gerund (even without a preposition!). Here's an example of such subordination: «...without violating probability.» As to expressing/naming an action, I don't know... Maybe this: 1. I like drinking coffee (the process of it) (Gerund) 2. The melting of ice is an endothermic process. (Verbal noun) « Can you mark the gerunds for Example 1, 2, and 3 (expecially 2 and 3)?» There's a very formal rule: verbal nouns require articles (as any nouns do), while gerunds do not. Your response seems to be almost alike in content with that of CoolBreeze's in one of his outstanding posts. But a while back, I think CalifJim said that gerunds can be treated as countable or non-countable and as with other nouns, and a/an can mean an instance of when placed before a gerund. Please note that CalifJim seems to have said a gerund can have a or an before it, not a verbal noun. But you and CB seem to be saying only verbal nouns can have an adjective as well as an article. I am confused. Help. Gerunds: 1: dueling 2: planting; being interpenetrated; having been cured; 3: having exhausted; violating; holding out «Can you explain to me what Example 3 is saying?» «We are far from ahving exhausted the significance of the few symbols we use» — We haven't exhausted... There're still enough symbols and it's going to be enough for a long time. «He could embellish the characters with new traits without violating probability» — ... He could endow them with new traits and keep them realistic, so that one doesn't say: "Hey, it's unlikely!" «He could not help holding out htis hadn in returen.» He could not make himsdelf not to hold out his hand. In short, "can't help" means "can not not to do something".

Ant_222 · Answer

«Please note that CalifJim seems to have said a gerund can have a or an before it, not a verbal noun. But you and CB seem to be saying only verbal nouns can have an adjective as well as an article. I am confused. Help.»

I am sure that if CJ did say that, he should have provided some examples, which are probably very interesting because I can't imagine a gerund with an "a/an".

Here's a verbal noun preceded by the indefinite article:

«...that led to a very fast spreading of the fire.»
(maybe it's bad sounding example, but I don't think it's wrong)

As to adjectives, a gerund can be preceded by an adjective only if it's also preceded by a posessive:

«We enjoyed their excellent singing» (Wikipedia)

Also I hope CJ and CB will help us.

EDIT: In this thread

Clive has answered your question. He doesn't distinct between verbal nouns and gerunds and therefore he admits gerunds can have an article.

CalifJim · Answer

See .<br/><br/>  CJ

verbal noun vs. gerund

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