Untangle a triple negative.

Question

After a couple of postings about my preferences for certain types of female breast (in the "Stool and Faeces" thread), I feel inexplicably moved to post something on-topic.
Abbey have sent me a letter laying out a few revised terms and conditions for the use of my Visa card. One paragraph starts with the sentence:-

"1j. We will not increase any promotional rate unless you have not kept to any terms and conditions that apply to your account, or we believe that the account is in danger of being misused". (sic).
The object of the game, an exercise in elementary Aristotelian logic, is to replace the triple negative (not unless not) with a single negative. The first prize goes to the contributor who can produce the clearest and shortest sentence with exactly the same meaning as the original, whatever that meaning might have been.
I expect some people may dispute my assertion that "unless" is a negative. This will provide somebody with an opportunity to start a second sub-thread. Subscribers to this view can busy themselves with the elimination of a double negative, and still join in the fun of the game.

Richard Chambers Leeds UK.

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]Subject: Untangle a triple negative. From: "Richard Chambers" The object of the game, an exercise in elementary Aristotelian logic, is ... and conditions that apply to your account, or we believe that the account is in danger of being misused". (sic).[/nq]
If you don't want to be ripped off, keep your nose clean, buster.

Peasemarch.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Abbey have sent me a letter laying out a few revised terms and conditions for the use of my Visa ... produce the clearest and shortest sentence with exactly the same meaning as the original, whatever that meaning might have been.[/nq]
We may (in some versions 'will') increase the promotional rate if you fail to (in some versions 'do not') keep to the terms and conditions ... etc

John Dean
Oxford

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Abbey have sent me a letter laying out a few ... meaning as the original, whatever that meaning might have been.[/nq]
[nq:1]We may (in some versions 'will') increase the promotional rate if you fail to (in some versions 'do not') keep to the terms and conditions ... etc[/nq]
"We will increase the promotional rate only if you do not ..."

As if.

rzed

Usenet · Answer

--

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]After a couple of postings about my preferences for certain types of female breast (in the "Stool and Faeces" thread), ... and conditions that apply to your account, or we believe that the account is in danger of being misused". (sic).[/nq]
If you attempt to use this card to pay for personal breast implants, our interest will increase.

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Hertfordshire
England

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]"1j. We will not increase any promotional rate unless you have not kept to any terms and conditions that apply to your account, or we believe that the account is in danger of being misused". (sic).[/nq]
"We will not increase any promotional rate if you have kept to all terms
and conditions that apply to your account, providing that we do not believe that the account is in danger of being misused."

Reducing the triple negative to a single negative to produce the above involved De Morgan's rule ~(~a>b) = a&~b (a = you have kept to all terms
and conditions that apply to your account, b = we believe that the account is in danger of being misused).
I'd replaced "or" with "and", but the resulting sentence gives the impression that the first of the two items linked by "and" is the whole sentence up to that point. The sentence seemed to need punctuation to
show its structure, hence ", providing that".
I admit that there is still a double negative "do not believe...misused"; however, there is no getting rid of the negative in "misused".
If that double-negative is nevertheless to be avoided, then "believe" may not be negated. The best I can do with those rules is this:

"Only if we believe that your account is in danger of being misused will
we increase any promotional rate, but not if if you have kept to all terms
and conditions that apply to it."
You could have "We will increase any promotional rate only if...", but,
to me, that sentence, until "only", seems to lead the reader up the garden
path by implying an unconditional increase.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]"1j. We will not increase any promotional rate unless ... that the account is in danger of being misused". (sic).[/nq]
[nq:1]"We will not increase any promotional rate if you have kept to all terms and conditions that apply to your ... to me, that sentence, until "only", seems to lead the reader up the garden path by implying an unconditional increase.[/nq]
What they are saying is that
"We will not increase any promotional rate unless you misuse your account, or if we believe that you might do so."
They are trying to put a kinder spin on it, is all.
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]What they are saying is that "We will not increase any promotional rate unless you misuse your account, or if we believe that you might do so." They are trying to put a kinder spin on it, is all. [/nq]
You still seem to have a double negative here :- (not increase unless). This, of course, assumes that you agree that "unless" is a negative.
Perhaps:-
The only circumstance under which we would increase a promotional rate is where you have misused your account, or where we believe you might do so.

However, the pithy translation from Qp10qp gets to the essence of it, and is still the clear winner in my opinion.
Richard Chambers Leeds UK.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]What they are saying is that "We will not increase ... trying to put a kinder spin on it, is all.[/nq]
[nq:1]You still seem to have a double negative here :- (not increase unless). This, of course, assumes that you agree that "unless" is a negative.[/nq]
I don't, of course. How can it be a negative it's a conditional.
[nq:1]Perhaps:- The only circumstance under which we would increase a promotional rate is where you have misused your account, or where we believe you might do so.[/nq]
That's alright too.
[nq:1]However, the pithy translation from Qp10qp gets to the essence of it, and is still the clear winner in my opinion.[/nq]

No, even that one is not accurate. What the original message really says is that they will not increase any promotional rate unless they decide to do it. Keeping your nose clean will not necessarily save you. Suspicion will take precedence. Luck alone is what might save you. Well, that's what they said.

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]You still seem to have a double negative here :- ... course, assumes that you agree that "unless" is a negative.[/nq]
[nq:1]I don't, of course. How can it be a negative it's a conditional.[/nq]
The Oxford Encyclopedic English Dictionary defines "unless" as " if not, except when"
This seems to contain a negative element. I would be inclined to call it a negative conditional.
"I shall go, unless I hear from you"
equals
"I shall go if I do not hear from you".
(A little side-puzzle here, irrelevant to the main argument, but nevertheless interesting. Why do I need a comma in the first sentence, but not in the second?)
The same negativity exists in the "unless" used by Abbey/Visa in the original sentence we are discussing.
Consider the following:-
I shall continue working, unless you discontinue your payments. This is equivalent to
I shall continue working if you continue your payments.

This equivalent pair of sentences again seems to show that "unless" is best described as "a negative conditional". I have cancelled two negatives by replacing "unless" by "if" and dropping the "dis" from "discontinue".

Richard Chambers Leeds UK.

Untangle a triple negative.

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