Two Fingers - History?

Question

Hi,this is cultural question, concerning nonverbal British English:Does anyone happen to know the historical background of showing someone two fingers (the English equivalent of showing someone the middle finger in the US).I am very clear about the US version of this rather rude gesture, but I find it hard to understand the impact of waving two fingers in somebody's face.A friend of mine told me that it may have to do with French archers: If caught by the English, the two fingers used to pull the string of the bow were cut off.I asked a British person, but he didn't know the historic background - which leads to another question:If you do not know what a gesture means, how can it be insulting?I'd be very interested in reading any theories on this subject.Cheers.

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]Hi, this is cultural question, concerning nonverbal British English: Does anyone happen to know the historical background of showing someone ... what a gesture means, how can it be insulting? I'd be very interested in reading any theories on this subject.[/nq]
The origin of the insulting version of the V-Sign is not known.

Wikipedia has an article which discusses various possibilities: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V sign

Mythic origins
It has long been told that the famous "two-fingers salute" and/or "V sign" derives from the gestures of Welsh archers who used the English longbow, fighting alongside the English at the Battle of Agincourt during the Hundred Years' War. The myth claims that the French cut off the middle and index fingers on the right hand of captured archers and that the gesture was a sign of defiance by those who were not mutilated.This may have some basis in fact - Jean Froissart (circa 1337-circa 1404) was a historian as the author of The Chronicle, a primary document that is essential to an understanding of Europe in the fourteenth century and to the twists and turns taken by the Hundred Years' War. The story of the English waving their fingers at the French is told in the first person account by Froissart, however the description is not of an incident at the Battle of Agincourt, but rather at the siege of a castle in another incident during the Hundred Years' War.

Also, Froissart is known to have died before the Battle of Agincourt. Another possible origin is from 18th century French brothels as a visual insult, the fingers indicating the creases at the top of a buxom woman's thighs, the crook between the fingers indicating the ******. This was meant to indicate that the insulter thought the other person was a "***". The insult would be accentuated by vigorously thrusting the fingers toward the person being insulted.

Like many social memes it is difficult to be sure where this story began, but it has become a part of Western myth.

Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.e.u)

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Wikipedia has an article which discusses various possibilities: sign[/nq]
Thank you. It's a bit difficult to do research on a gesture without knowing how to name it.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]The origin of the insulting version of the V-Sign is not known. Wikipedia has an article which discusses various possibilities: ... memes it is difficult to be sure where this story began, but it has become a part of Western myth.[/nq]
Something like this seems much more plausible to me than the archer story. A very similar gesture, the manus obscaena the two fingers being partly curled, with the thumb extended between them(*) is common in southern Europe. Beside being used as an insult (It. far la fica , Sp. hacer el higo , Fr. faire la figue ), it is held to have prophylactic value in some folk-magic traditions: amulets against the Evil Eye are made in the form of a hand in this position.

(* This is also a frequently seen feature of the British gesture, while in the "V for victory" and "peace" signs the thumb is usually bent, crossing over the ring and little fingers.)

Odysseus

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Hi, this is cultural question, concerning nonverbal British English: Does anyone happen to know the historical background of showing someone two fingers (the English equivalent of showing someone the middle finger in the US).[/nq]
Devil horns, I guess. But it's just my guess.
Today, young British genteelmen are led to believe that it is worse than the F word.
~Iain

Two Fingers - History?

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