Avangi Posted 18 years ago
Linguistics Studies
the middle voice option
0 ganesh77 started a thread which wrapped up on April 25, called "how to explain the usage of the ergative verb?" She's teaching ESL in an Asian country and her superior is Asian, I think. 02 br
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00 I had never heard the expression "ergative," which she defined as verbs having both a transitive and an intransitive use. Her understanding was that to use these verbs in the passive is incorrect. 02 br
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00 This seemed plausible on the face of it, but a controversy erupted and I was persuaded to take the other side. In Googling this, I found that "ergative" was usually coupled with "the middle voice option," I broke the window (active) The window was broken [by me] (passive) & The window broke (middle). 02 br
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00 I brought this up in the thread, as it seemed to shed light on her problem in a couple of ways. She replied that indeed, this was what her superior had mentioned. I tried to coax some of our members to comment, but no one would bite. 02 br
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00 I noticed that the majority of the Google references were from Asian sources (universities and professors) eg. Univ. of Hong Kong. 02 br
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00 I've never found the ESL community to be shy about embracing non-traditional approaches to things. On the contrary, they seem to invent them. 02 br
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00 Could someone comment on this? Do we mean to disparage "the middle voice option"? Does the "ergative verb" concept have a life of its own apart from the "middle voice" discussion? 02 br
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00 Thanks for your consideration. - A. 0-
02 br
00 I had never heard the expression "ergative," which she defined as verbs having both a transitive and an intransitive use. Her understanding was that to use these verbs in the passive is incorrect. 02 br
02 br
00 This seemed plausible on the face of it, but a controversy erupted and I was persuaded to take the other side. In Googling this, I found that "ergative" was usually coupled with "the middle voice option," I broke the window (active) The window was broken [by me] (passive) & The window broke (middle). 02 br
02 br
00 I brought this up in the thread, as it seemed to shed light on her problem in a couple of ways. She replied that indeed, this was what her superior had mentioned. I tried to coax some of our members to comment, but no one would bite. 02 br
02 br
00 I noticed that the majority of the Google references were from Asian sources (universities and professors) eg. Univ. of Hong Kong. 02 br
02 br
00 I've never found the ESL community to be shy about embracing non-traditional approaches to things. On the contrary, they seem to invent them. 02 br
02 br
00 Could someone comment on this? Do we mean to disparage "the middle voice option"? Does the "ergative verb" concept have a life of its own apart from the "middle voice" discussion? 02 br
02 br
00 Thanks for your consideration. - A. 0-
Top answer
0 I confess to being equally puzzled. This is what I said in a thread about a year ago, but did not receive a lot of comment: 02 br 02 br 01 i 00 1. I am having some difficulty in distinguishing between instances of ergativity and the middle voice.
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0 I confess to being equally puzzled. This is what I said in a thread about a year ago, but did not receive a lot of comment: 02 br
02 br
01 i 00 1. I am having some difficulty in distinguishing between instances of ergativity and the middle voice. Are they (in English at least) the same phenonemon described from two different perspectives? 02 br
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00 2.
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01 i 00 1. I am having some difficulty in distinguishing between instances of ergativity and the middle voice. Are they (in English at least) the same phenonemon described from two different perspectives? 02 br
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00 2.
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0 Hi Forbes, 02 br
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00 Thank you very much for your reply. I had not previously picked up on the "other languages" connection and it will take me a while to digest what you've said. 02 br
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00 Personally, I thought the middle voice concept was very helpful (if un-traditional) in addressing the problems of the American ESL teacher in Asia. You're the firs
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00 Thank you very much for your reply. I had not previously picked up on the "other languages" connection and it will take me a while to digest what you've said. 02 br
02 br
00 Personally, I thought the middle voice concept was very helpful (if un-traditional) in addressing the problems of the American ESL teacher in Asia. You're the firs
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0 Maybe I'll see the usefulness of terms like 01 i 00 ergative, unergative, accusative, 02 i 00 and 01 i 00 unaccusative 02 i 00 verbs, and 01 i 00 middle voice 02 i 00 once I understand them. I've grown frustrated at disentangling them all in the past, and that has not encouraged me to try again! I've even noted apparent contradictions in the
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0 Thanks, Jim, I deeply appreciate your reply. 02 br
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00 While I recall 01 i 00 accusative 02 i 00 from H.S. Latin, I didn't know that 01 i 00 ergtative 02 i 00 had its roots in other languages until Forbes posted. I'm getting the idea that this might be true of 01 i 00 "middle voice" 02 i 00 as well. So I guess they'd be o
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00 While I recall 01 i 00 accusative 02 i 00 from H.S. Latin, I didn't know that 01 i 00 ergtative 02 i 00 had its roots in other languages until Forbes posted. I'm getting the idea that this might be true of 01 i 00 "middle voice" 02 i 00 as well. So I guess they'd be o
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0 It is interesting that when linguists first described Basque, an ergative language (i.e. one that marks the object of a transitive verb in the same way as the subject of an intransitive verb) they did not understand what was going on and declared that Basque had no active voice. It seems that since they realised their error they have been making up for it by seeing ergativity everywhere. 0-
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0 I agree that the various terms are difficult to disentangle. I see the relevant taxonomy as something like this: 02 br
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01 b 01 u 00 A. Not Ambitransitive 02 u 02 b 02 br
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01 u 00 Type (i): used only intransitively 02 u 02 br
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00 (a) past participle = adj: 02 br
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00 1a. The plate
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01 b 01 u 00 A. Not Ambitransitive 02 u 02 b 02 br
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01 u 00 Type (i): used only intransitively 02 u 02 br
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00 (a) past participle = adj: 02 br
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00 1a. The plate
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0 Thank you, MrP. I shall spend the weekend, at least, trying to digest what you've written. (Old dogs, you know.) - A. 0-
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