The correct structure of modal sentences in the past tense

Question

Hi everybody, i have a confusion with "Modals" concerning the correct rule of making a sentence contains a modal verb in the past. I know that in the simple present the rule is " Modal + Bare infinitive", but in the simple past i find two different rules, the first rule " Modal+ Bare infinitive", the second rule "Modal+ Perfect form".
The problem is that i don't know when i should use the first rule " Modal+ Bare infinitive" and when i should use the second rule "Modal+ Perfect form". What makes things get worse is that i found that there are some modals that have their past for like (will in the past would) (may in the past might) ( can in the past could), so if these modals have their past form, do we should use this rule "Modal+ Perfect form ?
For example: - I will prepare my dinner (intention in the present) - I would prepare my dinner ( intention in the past) ( the teacher gave us these examples)
- You needn't bring the umbrella ( Lack of necessity in the present) - you needn't have brought the umbrella ( Lack of necessity in the past)
- He should have said hello, when i saw him in the street.
I will write an example to explain my confusion more. there is an exercise whose question is " Rewrite the following sentences using the appropriate modal paying particular attention to the form required by the context."
The sentence is : - She had the habit of gossipping with her sister. The teacher rewrited it like this - She would gossip with her sister. so why he didn't use this rule "Modal+ Perfect form"
Thanks in advance.

Terryxpress · Accepted Answer

She had the habit of ~~gossipping~~ gossipingwith her sister. The teacher ~~rewrited~~ rewrote it (like this) as -
She would gossip with her sister.
so why he didn't use this rule "Modal+ Perfect form"

In the modal + Perfect form, it would be...? Give us the sentence you think it should be.

AlpheccaStars · Answer

The sentence is : - She had the habit of gossiping with her sister. The teacher rewrote it like this - She would gossip with her sister. so why he didn't use this rule "Modal+ Perfect form"
Thanks in advance

She would gossip with her sister. (This is the same as: She used to gossip with her sister.)

The perfect form is used with untrue situations in the past:

She would have gossiped ( a) with her friends, but she was afraid that they would spread ( b) the gossip to others, so she didn't..

a) Untrue situation in the past
b) this is the future form "will" in the past)

This is also possible:
She would have gossiped ( a) with her friends, but they would have spread ( b) the gossip to others,

a) Untrue situation in the past
b) similar to the hypothetical result in the present: (If I were rich, I would go to Las Vegas.)

Anonymous · Answer

Thanks Terryxpress

I thinks it should be : - She would have gossiped with her sister.

Anonymous · Answer

Thanks AlpheccaStars

I understood what you wrote, but i have an example uses the perfect form although it is a true situation in the past
The example is - You needn't have brought the umbrella ( He brought the umbrella but the weather was fine).

AlpheccaStars · Answer

lost manI understood what you wrote, but i have an example uses the perfect form although it is a true situation in the past

Need is a little bit different compared to would or should.

He needn't have brought his umbrella. (He did bring his umbrella.)
He should have brought his umbrella. (He did not bring his umbrella, and it rained. He was sorry.)
He would have brought his umbrella, but he had heard the weather report which predicted clear skies. (He did not bring his umbrella because it was not necessary.)
He would have brought his umbrella, but there was a garage next to the building and he didn't need it.

Terryxpress · Answer

Too many cooks.
I'll pop back into the kitchen a little later.

Anonymous · Answer

Thanks AlpheccaStars , And other members really you do your best to help me.

AlpheccaStars · Answer

Hi lost;

One more thing - need must be used in the negative in these constructions. For example:

He need have brought ... is incorrect (not used).

Terryxpress · Answer

Preamble:
AlpheccaStars has coved some ground with you. I know from experience, that when I have contributed to a post, it can take another person or two to add their views, to make the issues clearer.

You give the example:
She had the habit of gossiping with her sister.
The teacher rewrote it like this:
She would gossip with her sister.
Why he didn't he use this rule: "Modal+ Perfect form"

Remember that an action/event in the Past Tense is finished, complete, over, and unconnected with NOW, the moment of speaking.
"She had the habit..."
This sentence is in the Past Tense. Your teacher wanted you to use 'would'...in the Past Tense. 'would' IS USED to form the Past Tense of 'will'.
So - "She would gossip..."
The use of the Past Tense implies that, in the past, she gossiped, but not NOW.

With an action/event in the Present Perfect -( and this is one use of the Present Perfect) - the speaker looks back...looks back from NOW, the moment he speaks, to a point in time when this action/event began...because this event has continued till NOW, is still connected to NOW, it is still relevant to NOW, still affects things NOW.
If...if she gossiped at this earlier time in the past AND is still gossiping NOW, as I tell you about this, then this action/event has continued from when she first gossiped, over all that time, right up to NOW.
Past Tense:
She would gossip...
....................|G.....................NOW.............
where G = gossiped.
In the Present Perfect:
She has gossiped since she first started to talk.
...B.........T/G<...........has gossiped...........>|NOW...........
where B= she was born
T/G = she started to talk and started to gossip, and has continued right up to
NOW = the moment of speaking

The Present Tense, and Past Tense verbs, tell me a FACT.
"He is a teacher."
"He was a teacher."
One of the major uses of the modals is to allow us to talk about events, actions, situations which are NOT factual - these are hypothetical, imagined situations.
So - "Mr. Smith died" is a FACT; and when I look back to that event, and speak in the Present Perfect, then this also is factual:
"Mr. Smith has died, and the funeral is tomorrow."

At this point, it is important to see that 'would+bare infinitive' refers to an action/event in the past; but look what happens when we use 'would' to make the Present Perfect form of the verb:
"She has died." - FACT

"They have died." FACT
but
"She would have died if the paramedics hadn't come in time."
This is not a FACT. This is imagining what could have happened.

I need to stop here to do something. I will be back later on.

I don't have time right now to proofread the above, so I'll do that when I come back. Hopefully, no major typos!

Anonymous · Answer

Thanks Terryxpress, i really appreciate your reply, my understanding of modals had changed to the best after i read your explanation twice.

The correct structure of modal sentences in the past tense

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