"SHOULD" again

Question

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Usenet · Accepted Answer

As a non-native speaker I'm a bit confused with the following meaning of "should":
Use "should" after "that" to show your opinion or feeling, for example: It's odd that he should react in this way.
It's strange that he should be late.
How interesting that he should say this.
The questions are:
Does "should" in those sentences ONLY add some emphasis to the feelings of the speaker?
Is "should" OFTEN used in this context now?
..
I am interested in what some grammar experts might answer to this. I can only comment that removal of the "that" does not make the sentence incorrect, but makes it perhaps a bit more idiomatic in USEnglish.

I tend to keep "that" in such cases as a clear indicator of a link to an independent clause, which refers to the subject of the main clause ("it", whether "it" appears or not.)

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The inimitable "alexbod" (Email Removed) stated one day
[nq:1]As a non-native speaker I'm a bit confused with the following meaning of "should": Use "should" after "that" to show your opinion or feeling, for example:[/nq]
You might want to tell us where you found this explanation of the meaning of "should" in the following sentences. I find it nonsense. The opinion or feeling is already expressed in the main clause of each sentence.
[nq:1]It's odd that he should react in this way. It's strange that he should be late. How interesting that he should say this. The questions are: Does "should" in those sentences ONLY add some emphasis to the feelings of the speaker?[/nq]
Geoffrey Leech says in An A-Z of English Grammar and Usage :
(quote)
Some adjectives, verbs, and nouns can be followed by a 'that'-clause containing 'should'. It means we are interested in the idea in the 'that'-clause, not in the fact that something happened." (/quote)
This seems to me a correct and convincing explanation of the meaning of the "should". I think, though, that for American speakers, it would also mean the same if "would" were used instead of "should".
[nq:1]Is "should" OFTEN used in this context now?[/nq]
Yes, it most certainly is. Interesting that you should use the word "now" in that question. Does that mean that you found this explanation is a very old grammar book?

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Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]As a non-native speaker I'm a bit confused with the ... about is why we should use "should" in those sentences.[/nq]
The explanation
[nq:2]Some adjectives, verbs, and nouns can be followed by a ... fact that something happened."greatly clarifies what I wanted to know.[/nq]
"It's strange that he should be late."
or
"It's strange that he is late."
Is it appropriate to use "should" in such a situation? If yes, does it mean John is never late and "should" emphasizes that?
I use Longman Dictionary Of Contemporary English. Its explanation for "should" goes as follows:

5) used after 'that' in some expressions showing an opinion or feeling:It's odd that he should react in this way.
The residents demanded that there should be an official inquiry.

This, as you see, just says that "should" is used in "some expressions" without any additional elucidation.
Another excellent book I have is "English Grammar In Use" by Raymond Murphy. But it gives no elucidation too.
Thank you.
Kind regards,
Alexander.
PS

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The inimitable "alexbod" (Email Removed) stated one day
[nq:1]I appologize for not expressing myself clearly. It's my fault.[/nq]
There is no need to apologize. I wasn't scolding you. At least, I didn't mean to scold you. You shouldn't feel bad anyway because even the regulars here forget to include sufficient information in their posts at times. I am guilty of that more often than I like to be.
[nq:1]What I actually wanted to ask about is why we should use "should" in those sentences.[/nq]
Your question is interesting to me. I've never thought about it and I would have had to think a long time about it had not Leech provided such a handy and convincing answer. Thank you for bringing the question up.
We don't need to use "should" in such sentences, but we can and sometimes do. There is more to it than I have the time to go into at the moment, but perhaps someone else will provide what I have omitted.
[nq:1]"It's strange that he should be late." or "It's strange that he is late." Is it appropriate to use "should" in such a situation? If yes, does it mean John is never late and "should" emphasizes that?[/nq]
Yes, if you are interested in the idea that John is late rather than the fact that John is late. The first leads to a guessing game about why John might be late, not because he is late, but because the guessing game is fun. The second leads to an analysis of the possible causes of John's being late because you are probably about to call him and complain or else attempt to determine how long you should wait for him. I hope this provides an adequate scenario for highlighting the difference between using the "should" and not using the "should".
This is really a fine point of grammar and semantics. Either way you say it is fine and appropriate. The contrasting meanings might be important in a New Critical academic analysis of dialog, but not in everyday speech or writing. I suspect that the LDCE didn't bother elucidating the usage
[nq:1]I use Longman Dictionary Of Contemporary English. Its explanation for "should" goes as follows: 5) used after 'that' in some expressions showing an opinion or feeling: It's odd that he should react in this way. The residents demanded that there should be an official inquiry.[/nq]
These two examples are fundamentally different, however. Yes, they do illustrate what the LDCE says, and they are both quite common types of expressions, but the "should" in each one is different in meaning. Leech's explanation (above) is what is wanted here.
[nq:1]This, as you see, just says that "should" is used in "some expressions" without any additional elucidation.[/nq]
Ah, but it does include the phrase "used after 'that'", which considerably alters the meaning and makes it not nonsense. It doesn't explain the value of the "should", though; you are right about that.
[nq:1]Another excellent book I have is "English Grammar In Use" by Raymond Murphy. But it gives no elucidation too.[/nq]
I know the Murphy book well. It is an exercise book and not really helpful, IMHO, because it is so cluttered. You might want to check out Michael Swan's Practical English Usage , an excellent resource for both EFL students and native speakers alike.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]"It's strange that he should be late." or "It's strange that he is late." Is it appropriate to use "should" ... elucidation. Another excellent book I have is "English Grammar In Use" by Raymond Murphy. But it gives no elucidation too.[/nq]
As far as I can tell, the "should" does not add any meaning in this construction. Many times "should" adds approval or disapproval, but not here.
"It's strange that he should be late."
"It's strange that he would be late."
"It's strange that he is late."
The difference betwee the last two is slight. "Would" is better for hypothetical and imaginary circumstances, and "is" is better for times when it truly happens, he really is known to be late. But if the "should" conveys any slight shade of meaning, it is not in my own idiolect; perhaps someone from the UK-plus school of thought sees a diference here. They see "shall" and "will" differently than Americans do, so they probably see "should" and "would" differently, too.

You asked whether this use is common. I don't know. It's not totally old-fashioned and outdated; I might say or hear things like:

I'm surprised you should say such a thing.
But I think I'd more likely say "would say" or "say" or "are saying." And I can't tell you why, sorry. I'm trying to discern if the "should" expresses a stronger sense of outraged indignation I just can't tell. So I'd have to say, no, it doesn't; it doesn't matter.
[nq:2]Please check your settings and see if you can turn off the MIME thanks. It doubles the length of your posts.[/nq]
[nq:1]Yes, I seemed to post the messages in the Unicode format, which doubles the character length. This one is in the KOI-8 ordinary text format. MIME is off.[/nq]
I appreciate that. Thank you.

Best Donna Richoux

Usenet · Answer

>
I think that you have let the explanation lead you astray. The "should" adds no emphasis or feeling. It is a construction that allows the first part of the sentence "It's strange" to apply to the second part
"he ... be late". The "It's strange" is the opinion or feeling.
>
Yes it is appropriate if he is never or almost never late, or if it is an important event he has been anticipating. As above, the "should" is not involved in emphasis. The "It's strange" part contains all the feeling.
The two expressions you have above are basically of equal strength and equivalent for your given scenario.
That answers your questions. Now some of us are
wondering what subtle difference there is between
(1) "It's strange that he should be carrying a goose." and
(2) "It's strange that he is carrying a goose."
We can also have
(3) "It's strange that he was carrying a goose last night."

I think what is happening is that the "should be"
construction frees the construction from a particular tense. It can handle the present or last night or both at once.

For this part, I hope that a more expert opinion follows.

Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.

"SHOULD" again

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