Not...until

Question

1) I'll return it to you until next Tuesday. 2) I'll return it to you not until next Tuesday. 3) I'll not return it to you until next Tuesday. Are they the same? Pastel

Haoqide · Accepted Answer

1.) This means that you'll return it to me, but next Tuesday you're going to want to get it back from me. heheh, this is something I (unwittingly) often do with my friends...I'll borrow my friend's lawnmower to mow my lawn, and I'll forget to bring it back to him until he calls. So, I'll say, "Ok, sure, sorry! But I need to borrow it again on Friday." So, that's kind of saying, "I'll return it to you until Friday." hehe

2.) This is a valid sentence and means the same thing as #3, but it doesn't sound as good.

3.) This is the best one. It means that you will return it next Tuesday, but not before then.

Hope this helps!

-Haoqide

Mister Micawber · Answer

I'm afraid I only like the third option, Pastel.  The second needs a ", but".

PASTEL · Answer

1) I'll return it to you until next Tuesday.

2) I'll wait for you until 10 o'clock.

2-a) I won't leave until 10 o'clock.

They are similiar structures, but the first one doesn't make sense. I think it is the verb 'return' that troubles. Can you kindly provide more examples on this one?

CalifJim · Answer

Future Tense + UNTIL + Point in Time

The structure shown above works differently, depending whether the verb is interpreted as a continuing situation or as an event. Some verbs can only be interpreted one way; some can be interpreted both ways.

Situations: waiting, being away

1) I'll wait here until 8 o'clock.

2) Fred will be away until next Thursday.

Comments: The waiting continues until 8. The being away continues until next Thursday.

Events: dying, winning a race

3) Our sick hamster will die until 8 o'clock.
4) George will win the race until 5 o'clock.

Comments: Dying happens at a point in time, so continuing to die doesn't make sense. Winning also happens at a point in time, illustrating the same problem.

The negative form of the structure also works differently, depending on the type of verb.

Situations: waiting, being away

5) I won't wait here until 8 o'clock.

6) Fred won't be away until next Thursday.

Comments: These can be interpreted as a negation of the "until" clause: The waiting continues, but the period of waiting will not extend to 8 o'clock. The being away continues, but not until next Thursday.

They can also be interpreted as a negation of the continuing action: The waiting won't even start until 8. The being away won't even start until next Thursday. But under this interpretation, we no longer have a "situation"; we have an "event", namely, the starting of the waiting and the starting of the being away. A verb which is normally thought of as situation-like can be thought of as event-like in the context of this "until" structure if we focus on the start of the situation. In other words, the starting of a situation is an event.

A combination of common sense and context usually resolves the ambiguity, but rephrasing is better:

Making the first of the pair -5- more clearly a situation:

7) I'm not going to wait here that long. I'm going to leave before 8 o'clock.

Making the second of the pair -6- more clearly an event:

8) Fred won't be leaving until next Thursday, when he travels to Santa Fe.

Events: arriving, beginning work.

9) Bernie won't arrive until 8 o'clock.

10) Ellen won't begin work until 5 o'clock.

There's more to be said on this topic, particularly with regard to different types of verbs and how they behave within the "until" structure, but I'll leave that for another time. In the meantime, try creating the negative forms of (3) and (4) and see if you like the results you get!

Wsjdt · Answer

hi! Haoqide:How do you do!I am Robin. do you want to learn Chinese? Can I ask you why? I am a chinese. are you chirstian? Iask you the question because you said you can teach bible.

Haoqide · Answer

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PASTEL · Answer

Hi, Jim.

Your great explanation is much appreciated. I would like to check my comprehension before going on posting other questions. If there's something unclear in my post or if I misunderstand your point there, please let me know, OK?

The following sentences are somewhat ambiguous.
I will not wait here until 8.

> I will keep waiting here and I won't leave before 8.

> I will wait here until 8.
I will not wait here until 8.

> I will not be waiting here before 8.

Fred will not be away until next Tuesday.

> Fred will be away. He won't be back before next Tuesday.

> Fred will be away until next Tuesday.
Fred will not be away until next Tuesday.

> Fred will be here until next Tuesday.

And back to my original subject. Basically, the first two sound express the same idea:
I will not return it to you until next Friday.

> I will return it to you and I'll give it back to you next Friday.
I will not return it to you until next Friday.

> I will keep your stuff at my place and I'll give it back to younext Friday.
I will return it to you until next Friday.

==> It's a promise that I will return it to you. This is an event, you will return it at a point in time and it's impossible to borrow your pencil at this moment and return it to you 1 minute later. And then I borrow it agian, and I give it back to you again. And borrow again and give it back again. ( Well, only if someone is being naughty) 'Until' implies a period that last a while, so it doesn't fit in this sentence. It should be 'I will return it to you next Friday.'

If my posts make your head spinning, please kindly forgive my clumziness.

CalifJim · Answer

Pastel,

That's a lot. Let's take just one part for now.

You wrote:
<I will not wait here until 8.

> I will keep waiting here and I won't leave before 8.

> I will wait here until 8.
I will not wait here until 8.

> I will not be waiting here before 8. >>

I will not wait here until 8.

> I will keep waiting here, but I will leave before 8 (maybe at 6, maybe at 6:30, maybe at 7, etc.) (This is not the same as "I will wait here until 8".)

OR
I will not wait here until 8.

> I will not be waiting here before 8. (as you said)

> It will be 8 when I start to wait here.

It is the first of your two interpretations that isn't quite correct.

PASTEL · Answer

I got that one. Thanks.

This is the second sentence.
Fred will not be away until next Tuesday.

> Fred will be away, but he might get back before next Tuesday,
Fred will not be away until next Tuesday.

> Fred will be here until next Tuesday. In other words, he won't leave before next Tuesday.

How do you like it?

Mister Micawber · Answer

Pastel, I think this is the danger of playing with words as if they were children's toy blocks instead of a tool of communication. There is no point in constructing awkward hypothetical sentences that are not authentic.

(1) Fred'll be back before next Tuesday.
(2) Fred'll be here till next Tuesday.

These are clearer,much more likely, more natural constructions, while the ones you have presented are convoluted, confusing, and poor English. What's the point?

Not...until

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> I will keep waiting here and I won't

> I will keep waiting here and I won't leave before 8.

> I will not be waiting here before 8. >>

I will not wait h

> Fred will be away, but he might get back before next Tuesday,
Fred will not be away until next Tuesday.

Not...until

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> I will keep waiting here and I won't

> I will keep waiting here and I won't leave before 8.

> I will not be waiting here before 8. >> I will not wait h

> Fred will be away, but he might get back before next Tuesday, Fred will not be away until next Tuesday.

> I will not be waiting here before 8. >>

I will not wait h

> Fred will be away, but he might get back before next Tuesday,
Fred will not be away until next Tuesday.