Good writer vs. good storyteller

Question

Trying to decide which script(s) to enter in Nicholl and Austin this year, and I have a question.

It occurs to me that a person can be a good writer but not have cinema-worthy script ideas. They say a lot of specs are well-crafted duds. The stories are not high-concept enough, or just don't have enough "oomph" to bother putting up on the screen.

So my question is: how can one tell when to keep plugging away, and when to give up because one doesn't have good story sense?

I look at people like the guy who wrote the book that "Million Dollar Baby" was taken from. The guy tried to be a novelist for FORTY-NINE YEARS! He was finally published at something like age 70. He died before MDB was produced; his heirs received the $250K for film rights.

For that guy, or people like Jasper Fforde, it's about perseverance. (Fforde got 100+ rejections before his book finally sold; now it's a worldwide series of bestsellers being made into a film.) Again, how can you tell when to persevere, and when the rejection notices mean you really, truly and seriously don't have good stories?

Lois

Usenet · Accepted Answer

You can't. Friends of mine have demonstrated that often it's not what you know, it's who you know. People who spend more of their time trying to charm and persuade other people, stand a much better chance of getting other people to use their resources to turn their visions into something. You might add "vs. good businessperson" to the title of this thread.

Also, even having won a charm offensive, cinematic history demonstrates that big successes are usually not appreciated by big corporations when they're in gestation. "Star Wars" was threatened with cancellation. "Jaws" went ridiculously over its shooting time, because of all the hazards of filming on water. It takes the guts of a visionary individual to get something monumental done. Banks and establishment corporations don't fulfil that role in society. The people who inhabit such entities are completely incapable of making the leaps. They're good at other things that visionaries aren't.

-- Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

When no one else sells courage, supply and demand take hold.

Usenet · Answer

At the end of the day, one man's poison is another man's poodle. Er, or something like that.

Just because someone doesn't like your story doesn't necessarily make it a bad story, just maybe that it's being told to the wrong person.

Unless of course it really does stink. LOL!

-- MON __ SceneWriter Pro "Bring your script to life" www.scenewriterpro.com

Usenet · Answer

The more you write, the more scripts & movies you break down into scene-by-scene analyses, the more classes you take, the more screenwriters you talk to, the clearer this all becomes. If you've written five scripts and they all have the same flaw, it's time to get professional help to work on that flaw. If you've written eight scripts and can't place in a contest or get enthusiasm from instructors or classmates with any of them, it's time to get professional help. That's 6-10 drafts per script. I have been at the stage where everyone says "this is well written but..." which means you have polish and basics down, but there's still some work to be done with structure or the integration of plot, theme, and characterization.

Most ideas are execution dependent. The ones that aren't sell themselves quickly (or are stolen quickly), and are very, very rare in my experience.

It takes a **** of a lot of writing to learn to write well, imho. And even though screenwriting using a much narrower range of tools than novel or short story writing, it's still not easy to learn to do well.

Mysti

Usenet · Answer

I suppose when I spoke earlier and said "you can't tell," I was assuming good work that goes unrecognized for business reasons.

-- Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

"The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back." - anonymous entrepreneur

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]The more you write, the more scripts & movies you ... time to get professional help to work on that flaw.[/nq]
[nq:1]I suppose when I spoke earlier and said "you can't tell," I was assuming good work that goes unrecognized for business reasons.[/nq]
yah, I was answering Lois' question 'when can you tell your stories aren't cinema-worthy' not 'how can you tell if you'll ever sell a script' which is, as you pointed out, quite unknowable...

Mysti

Usenet · Answer

Mysti Berry (Email Removed) wrote:
[nq:1]yah, I was answering Lois' question 'when can you tell your stories aren't cinema-worthy' not 'how can you tell if you'll ever sell a script' which is, as you pointed out, quite unknowable...[/nq]
Well, I think honest self assessment if a vital part of any writer's process, and it's one of the hardest things to learn.

If you really think your stuff is good and you have reason to think you're judging yourself fairly the next question is, "Why is it having a hard time finding an audience?"
I have a script which I think contains some of my best writing which has really failed to light a fire under anyone in Hollywood. That's been frustrating, but I think it's also a reflection that the script is probably too small for Hollywood to really consider.

Or, rather, when Hollywood does consider stuff like that, it's only when a) somebody's already made the movie independently, taking a lot of the guesswork out of it or b) the writer has a real track record, so the Hollywood money types can put their faith in the writer.

I mean, I look at this script of mine and I don't feel like it's any smaller or more obscure than "Moonlight Mile," (which took route B) or "Walking and Talking" (which took route A). But I realize that it doesn't make sense for me to pitch that script to some of my contacts in Hollywood.
And, from that realization, I started working on bigger things, which are easier to market, easier to see Hollywood investing in and in the last six months I've gotten a lot of work done on two scripts which I feel are marketable without being generic.
It's a fine line. I recently read an old friend of mine from film school's script, and the thing is he's a really interesting and unique guy, and the script isn't anywhere close to as interesting as he is. But it's drawn some interest from representation...

But start with self-assessment. Recognize that there are reasons why your scripts might not get any traction that have nothing to do with the quality of the story; as Bill and Neal have pointed out many times, "good" in Hollywood terms means, "Will millions of people pay to see this movie?" That story that might be a beautiful short literary novel, honestly, is probably going to struggle as a feature film spec.

-Ron

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Trying to decide which script(s) to enter in Nicholl and Austin thisyear, and I have a question.[/nq]
It occurs to me that a person can be a good writer but not have cinema-worthy script ideas. They say a lot of specs are well-crafted duds. The stories are not high-concept enough, or just don't have enough "oomph" to bother putting up on the screen. <<

So true. There's "good writing" which is the writing on the page, and then there's "good writing" which is a strong story that will appeal to enough people to justify making it into a movie. Often, there's a gaping chasm between these two things.
[nq:1]So my question is: how can one tell when to keep plugging away, andwhen to give up because one doesn't have good story sense? <<[/nq]
There's no way to know, so don't bother trying to answer the question. Other than the obvious indicators, i.e., people who know what they're talking about have read your writing and encourage you to keep doing it, there's just no way to know if you do or don't have "good story sense" at least until you explore and express the story in at least a general way. I have a friend who wrote a great, gret script, which he sold and was made into a movie with an all star cast. It's fantastic. Man he struggled to write that thing, and he never really knew if it "worked" or not. The script he wrote after that, while it sounded good as a logline, turned out to be a total piece of *** and an utter failure, and it took him a year to write. You just don't know. But what you do need to know is this: why are you writing? If you're doing it with success or failure in mind, with a sale as your goal, then you're probably doing it for the wrong reasons. If you're doing it because you're compelled to do it, then who gives a *** what other people think?
[nq:1]I look at people like the guy who wrote the book that "Million DollarBaby" was taken from. The guy tried ... at something like age 70. He died before MDB was produced; his heirs received the $250K for film rights. <[/nq]
But he liked to write. A lot. That's what mattered to him. Not having it made into a movie for a big payday.
[nq:1]For that guy, or people like Jasper Fforde, it's about perseverance.(Fforde got 100+ rejections before his book finally sold; now it's a worldwide series of bestsellers being made into a film.) Again, how can[/nq]
you tell when to persevere, and when the rejection notices mean you really, truly and seriously don't have good stories? <

I think that, if you write five or six scripts and none of them garner a good response, and you don't have a story you're dying to tell, maybe you should let it go...if it's making you miserable. If it isn't, why not keep doing it?

Usenet · Answer

Ron,
i think it's key that the writer match the type of script he's selling to the corner of the market to which it best fits, sounds like you did just that!
I invoke the Rule of Dungeons and Dragons (which I only played once, mind you) for scripts:
the more "points" you knock off for perceived difficulty to market, the more points you have to add for quality or originality to compensate, and that still doesn't mean Anyone Could Ever Sell Sideways to Bruckheimer but that doesn't mean that there aren't markets for Sideways type stories.
Mysti

Usenet · Answer

Too many questions! Focus!
1) Story ideas: danged important. You should be able to open the entertainment section of the newspaper and compare your idea to the movies out there and realize yours is coolest...
And non-industry people should get excited about your story idea. I still pitch my ideas to guys I used to work with at my old day job. If they can't wait to see the movie, that's probably a pretty good idea.

A couple of weeks ago, I came up with an idea and pitched it to a friend at my local Starbucks... who wants to give the script (when I write it) to his contacts. You can test ideas on real humans.

2) What's success? I think you write because you want to write, and you hope someone pays you someday... but if they don't, you've still written something, right? Part of it is perserverance, but part of it is just about the writing.
3) And Eastwood had lots of problems getting MDB to screen. Eastwood! So that's one of those stories that's not going to be easy no matter who you are. I'd do some other kind of story - either with high school kids dating **** stars or with lots of big explosions and scenes where peopel are chased by fireballs.
4) Again: when you're dealing with popular entertainment like movies, other people who go to the movies can be a good sounding board. If they're bored by your story, it's gonna be hard to sell.

It's really all about the stories - the writing part very few people see in this biz. So if you can come up with a bunch of great stories, that's a good thing.
- Bill

Usenet · Answer

There is no acid test. You just have to feel that you did well. Many great movies had their origin with under rated or rather "under estimated" scripts. Even many edited movies were considered during previews to be a failure. Raging Bull, American Grafiti are just two of the many.
A great script can be ruined by a bad director. An average script can be elevated by great director. I didnt want to mention names here, but e-mail me for the names at the AOL address. Besides, no script ever goes to screen without a rewrite. And on location script changes again. There is no absolute in screenplays. There are too many variables in making a film.
Obviously, you know many didn't get produced and I see you are objective and awake. I can't say that about many. See if you can develop a "cause" for writng, if you havent yet. Yes, money is good. But for sanity sake, have another. The more you read on how to this... and how to that... it will become very mechanical. Just write for the fun of it and whatever your cause may be.
Now, if there is one "thing" to maintain in your script: Its the readability. A sense of flow. Good, clean, shot dialogue without much direction. Its like an animator fliping through pages to see how well it animates. Randomly choose some pages and read and see how well it flows, how well it animate your "movie."
Good luck,
Jay Bala.

Good writer vs. good storyteller

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