Capitalization

Question

Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou has delivered an impassioned plea to German business leaders to help his country out of its current debt crisis.Mr Papandreou said German funding would not be an investment in past failures, but in future successes.He also hailed Greece's "superhuman" efforts to cut its debt levels.The prime minister is in Germany for talks with German Chancellor Angela Merkel to discuss his country's progress in cutting its budget deficit.Mr Papandreou said the current debt crisis provided a "unique opportunity to launch important reforms that Greece badly needs to become competitive again".Ahead of the visit, Greek Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos said that his country would receive the funds next month......................................................Please look at the bold faced words in the above.When we write Greek Prime Minister or Greek Finance Minister the words become proper nouns; so capitalization is necessary.If you just write 'the chanceller is going to deliver a speech.' this is fine.But it should be  the Chancellor Merkel is going to deliver a speech.It seems to say I met the finance minister, the prime minister, chancellor, etc fine.It is not the case when writing the name of the person. Why is this?

Cool Breeze · Accepted Answer

Rotter Why is this?

I don't think there is an answer to this question. If there is one, I am not familiar with it. For some reason capital letters are used far more in English than in the other Germanic languages - apart from German, of course, in which all nouns are capitalised. In Swedish the names of months and the days of the week are not capitalised. They aren't capitalised in Finnish either, but Finnish isn't even remotely related to the Germanic languages. In Swedish the words meaning "president", "prime minister" and "queen" and so on are capitalised only if they begin a sentence. Why? I don't know.

CB

Rotter · Answer

Thanks CB

Oh! You have studied German too. German is unique; every noun is capitalized.

I am familiar with the way Swedish capitalize. In Swedish days, months are not capitalized when you place it in the middle of the sentence. Even the 'Jag' will not be capitalized in the middle of a sentence.

I know some good French too.

I'm American. [Je suis américain.]

He said, I love you. [ Il a dit je t'aime.].

I studied Russian too. Generally Russian capitalize proper nouns. The following shows some exceptions:

Days of the week are not capitalized.
Months are not capitalized.
Words following the first word in a title, holiday, or organization are not capitalized.
First person singular ? is not capitalized unless it starts a sentence.
Nationalites are not capitalized and the city name where one originates from are not capitalized either, meaning ??????? is not capitalized but the city ?????? is capitalized.

[ I have forgotten a lot of Russian.]

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I had a hunch, in English, when you write your title before the name it will become a proper noun.

You don't say so. There may be some esoteric reason for this feature.

I would like to hear from CJ, Clive, Mister Micawber, Anonymous, Avangi and the others. I am unable to write names all our friends who helps in this forum.

Rotter · Answer

There were no comments from the others. I am eagely waiting to hear from the others.

I presume that there is nothing to add. What CB told me was final.

Those ministers and prime ministers are luminaries.

Let us take another profession.

At home you have a problem with your drainage system.

I have asked a plumber to come and repair the drainage system. [CORRECT]

5. I am waiting for plumber Martin to come and repait the drainage system.

6. I am waiting for Plumber Martin to come and repait the drainage system.

Do you write both 5th and 6th sentences?

If Martin is a minister, it is crystal clear to me.

I am waiting for Minister Martin to come ... [ CORRECT]

Rotter · Answer

I would like to hear comments from CB or someone else about last post.

I talked to Plumber Martin about ...

I talked to plumber Martin about ...

Whether it is appropriate to capitalize the word plumber is my question.

Clive · Answer

Hi,

A few brief comments.

We tend to capitalize when we are thinking of the word as a title.

eg Washington announced today that the President will visit China next summer.

The importance of the person and the position is also a factor.

eg Fred is the president of a company that makes hot-dogs and has 3 employees.

In English, there are very few titles that are used in front of a person's name.

We say eg President Obama, Doctor Smith.

But not eg Engineer Jones, Plumber Martin, Teacher Clive.

Clive

JohnParis · Answer

I would like to reply to the Rotter’s first question.

Two of the finest examples of written English can be found in the periodical "The Economist" and in the daily newspaper, "The New York Times". It is not a coincidence that both of these publications publish a style and usage guides. In the Economist's 10th edition on pages 28 and 29, Rotter’s question is answered clearly and precisely.

Under the section "Ranks and titles" it says: Use upper case when written in conjunction with a name, but lower case when written on their own:

Pope Benedict, but the pope

President Obama, but the president

Queen Elizabeth, but the queen

Under the section "Office Holders" it says: When referred merely by their office, not by their name, office holders are always lower case:

the finance minister

the prime minister

the president of the United States (I was surprised by this one)

I recommend that any serious student of English own both the Economist and The New York Times Style and Usage guides. You can get them on Amazon.

John

Rotter · Answer

I thank Clive and John for the replies.

Clive wrote the following:

The importance of the person and the position is also a factor.

I met President Obama when I visited the White House. [CORRECT]

I even met Plumber Martin who was repairing the drainage system at the White House. [WRONG]

I think you would agree with me to say that this is a discrimnatory practice.

John

Could you write the exact names of those 2 books you have mentioned here?

Do you have the ISBNs?

JohnParis · Answer

Sure Rotter, here you are.

If you buy both from amazon.com, the price is $26.19

Regards, John

The New York Times Manual of Style and Usage : The Official Style Guide Used by the Writers and Editors of the World's Most Authoritative Newspaper [Paperback]

http://www.amazon.com/Allan-M.-Siegal/e/B001KHT4FY/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_1 (Author), http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_2?_encoding=UTF8&sort=relevancerank&search-alias=books&field-author=William%20G.%20Connolly (Author)

ISBN-10: 081296389X
ISBN-13: 978-0812963892

The Economist Style Guide, Tenth Edition [Hardcover]

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?_encoding=UTF8&sort=relevancerank&search-alias=books&field-author=The%20Economist (Author)

ISBN-10: 1846681758
ISBN-13: 978-1846681752

Rotter · Answer

Thanks John

Some 26 or 27 dollars are not expensive.

However, you have to be careful of buying from Amazon.

It should be Amazon in a European country.

Some years ago I bought some stuff from Amazon. I didn't care about whether it was in the US or Europe.

It was in the US. I had to pay some custom duties.

It would have been cheaper if I had bought from a local bookshop.

If you live in Europe, you don't pay extra charges when buying form a European book dealer.

I could check the price tags with a local book dealers.

JohnParis · Answer

Here is the link to both books for £21.30 GBP from www.amazon.co.uk.

Voila - no duties or customs charges!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nyt-Style-Book-Alan-Siegal/dp/081296389X/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1317318017&sr=8-11

Good luck,

John

Capitalization

Top answer

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Sure Rotter, here you are.

If you buy both from amazon.com, the price is $26.19

The New York Times Manual of Style and Usage : The Official Style Guide Used by the Writers and Editors of the World's Most Authoritative Newspaper [Paperback]