Action movies, in particular "Hero" ("Ying xiong") - w/ spoilers

Question

This is a difficult post about a difficult movie so, please bear with me as I muddle through.

I think Jet Li is great. I watch all his movies that I can and own several. Donnie Yen's good, too. I appreciate Ziyi Zhang and the rest of the cast. I really like Chinese films in general with all that wire work they've done for years; used to see them with a high school friend when I lived in Honolulu.

But, "Hero" puts me to sleep! Yes, it's visually beautiful and all that, but I have NEVER before fallen asleep during a Chinese film much less an action movie and this one did it to me 3x on two different nights.

So, I decided to be firm and watch it a third evening when I was well-rested and able to pay strict attention. I caught myself dozing off numerous times and backed up the movie to where I last recalled what was going on so now, I may honestly say that I've seen it in it's entirety.

Which leaves the question of "Wha'happened?"

The extra features revealed that it's Yimou Zhang's, the writer/director, first foray into action movies and I believe his dramatic background really hurt it. Theoretically, flashbacks impede the forward motion of a story, but in this case, the drag was in the present tense. The only action for the longest time is in the flashbacks; the present consists primarily of talking heads, i.e. sleep-inducers, until close to the end. .. .. .. s p o i l e r s .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..

But, how could the story have unfolded w/o letting the viewer know about the conspiracy from the get-go? That twist and that Nameless didn't kill Broken Sword and Flying Moon are as much major points in the story as was his decision not to assassinate the king after going to all the trouble of getting close enough. Withholding info like that in a typical straightforward action movie wouldn't be tolerated because it's cheating the viewer.

The only solution that I can see at this time is to liven up the talking heads, maybe have a minister come in with a whispered message for the king to pique the viewer's curiosity and anticipation which would, of course, later have to be satisfied.

Are there other action/adventure films that rely so heavily upon flashbacks? Those that I think of have much shorter flashbacks and the main action is always in the present.

-- ~~Bluesea~~who can't stand the thought of disliking such a beautiful film Spam is great in musubi but not in email. Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]But, "Hero" puts me to sleep! Yes, it's visually beautiful and all that, but I have NEVER before fallen asleep during a Chinese film much less an action movie and this one did it to me 3x on two different nights.[/nq]
I've never actually heard anyone call this an action film before. Having seen Raise the Red Lantern, I was pleased with the pace and utterly absorbed in each story.
[nq:1]So, I decided to be firm and watch it a third evening when I was well-rested and able to pay ... I last recalled what was going on so now, I may honestly say that I've seen it in it's entirety.[/nq]
And if you didn't expect "an action film" do you think you would have responded the same way? Have you seen the director's other movies? Were you aware of the accusations of nationalism and counter-accusations of subversion swirling around the story elements?
[nq:1]Which leaves the question of "Wha'happened?"[/nq]
Perhaps the Miramax ad campaign misset your expactations? We saw it at the premiere San Francisco screening hosted by the Asian Art Museum, and the packed out house was pretty satisfied. But I don't think they were expecting an action picture either...
[nq:1]The extra features revealed that it's Yimou Zhang's, the writer/director, first foray into action movies and I believe his dramatic background really hurt it.[/nq]
Did you feel that way about Crouching Tiger? It was Lee's first "action" film, albeit more firmly anchored in the wu xia tradition...
[nq:1]Theoretically, flashbacks impede the forward motion of a story, but in this case, the drag was in the present tense. The only action for the longest time is in the flashbacks; the present consists primarily of talking heads, i.e. sleep-inducers, until close to the end.[/nq]
Chess is not the most common spectator sport, granted, but are you sure that nothing but talk was going on in those scenes? Does interesting conflict only derive from flying feet, pikes, and fists?
[nq:1].. .. .. s p o i l e r s .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ... close enough. Withholding info like that in a typical straightforward action movie wouldn't be tolerated because it's cheating the viewer.[/nq]
Um, The Usual Suspects and Rashomon both use variations on this technique...and which conspiracy are you referring to? The cooperation of all four against Chin?
[nq:1]The only solution that I can see at this time is to liven up the talking heads, maybe have a ... which would, of course, later have to be satisfied. Are there other action/adventure films that rely so heavily upon flashbacks?[/nq]
The Usual Suspects, Rashomon, Double Indemnity, having a framing story is a pretty common technique, actually. I don't think it's useful to think of these as "flashbacks" since the story is told three times, in three different thematic colors, with three different sets of facts...

For me, the chess game between Chin and Nameless was more than suspenseful enough...it seemed clear that Chin was crazy but sharp, and that both he and Nameless had a few tricks up their sleeves...but I wasn't expecting Die Hard or the Five Venoms or Enter the Dragon or even Bride with White Hair. I was expecting something more like *** and Zen (King Hu or Zhangish, that is!)...
[nq:1]Those that I think of have much shorter flashbacks and the main action is always in the present.[/nq]
You can really scramble time if you get the structure right, IMHO. Especially in a movie that is asking thematic questions like "what *is* a hero?" and what is the truth?

JMO, I'm sad that this movie put you to sleep! I saw "Closer" with a gal pal the other night, and something in the ads made her think it was a comedy. Imagine her unpleasant surprise when about 20 minutes in she realized it was going to bang on every single issue about her still-cooling divorce. And I've totally not gotten movies myself because I just couldn't figure out what they were on about...revisted years later, a big smack on the old forehead and a "doh" for me

Thanks for sharing your reaction--it's a fascinating question to me, how a writer sets his audiences' expectations...

Mysti

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]But, "Hero" puts me to sleep! Yes, it's visually beautiful ... one did it to me 3x on two different nights.[/nq]
[nq:1]I've never actually heard anyone call this an action film before.[/nq]
Interesting. It's got martial arts, Jet Li and Donnie Yen, an army in action, how could it not be? The director himself said that since it was his first action movie, he decided to call upon the action-directing services of a good friend of his who directed all the action scenes for him.
[nq:2]So, I decided to be firm and watch it a ... may honestly say that I've seen it in it's entirety.[/nq]
[nq:1]And if you didn't expect "an action film" do you think you would have responded the same way?[/nq]
Since it stars Jet Li and Donnie Yen, that's difficult for me to speculate upon, but it's been a l-o-n-g time since any sort of movie's put me to sleep.
[nq:1]Have you seen the director's other movies?[/nq]
No.
[nq:1]Were you aware of the accusations of nationalism and counter-accusations of subversion swirling around the story elements?[/nq]
No.
[nq:2]Which leaves the question of "Wha'happened?"[/nq]
[nq:1]Perhaps the Miramax ad campaign misset your expactations?[/nq]
I don't see how - I saw the DVD on the shelf at Wal-Mart and because Jet Li's on the front, picked it up. Draw of the star, y'know, a Pavlov's dog-like reaction: see Jet Li = buy DVD. Hmm...period costumes = it's a historical -> this should be good. Zhang Ziyi = "Crouching Tiger" -> icing on the cake. Tony Leung, Maggie Cheung...sound familiar but can't place them. Chen Dao Ming...who? Donnie Yen = "Once Upon A Time in China II" -> yes, this'll be a good one. .
[nq:2]The extra features revealed that it's Yimou Zhang's, thewriter/director, first foray into action movies and I believe his dramatic backgroundreally hurt it.[/nq]
[nq:1]Did you feel that way about Crouching Tiger? It was Lee's first "action" film, albeit more firmly anchored in the wu xia tradition...[/nq]
Absolutely not. But, "Crouching Tiger" is relatively straightforward compared to "Hero" and the action or anticipation of action is throughout, not confined to the flashbacks or towards the end of the show.
[nq:2]Theoretically, flashbacks impede the forward motion of a story, but ... primarily oftalking heads, i.e. sleep-inducers, until close to the end.[/nq]
[nq:1]Chess is not the most common spectator sport, granted, but are you sure that nothing but talk was going on in those scenes?[/nq]
LOL - maybe I dozed off again unaware! FWIW, while living in HNL, I used to go to the Ala Moana Center to watch the weekly chess matches and didn't find them to be sleep-inducers at all.
[nq:1]Does interesting conflict only derive from flying feet, pikes, and fists?[/nq]
Not to me.
[nq:2].. .. .. s p o i l e r ... straightforward action movie wouldn't be tolerated because it's cheatingthe viewer.[/nq]
[nq:1]Um, The Usual Suspects and Rashomon both use variations on this technique...[/nq]
But, "Rashomon" is a story told in flashbacks, also. I don't see how Nameless et al could conspire in a straightforward tale w/o the viewer knowing about the conspiracy since the viewer would be watching them conspire.

Rashomon didn't put me to sleep, either.
[nq:1]and which conspiracy are you referring to? The cooperation of all four against Chin?[/nq]
Dang - did my dozing make me miss others? Yes, the conspiracy that put Nameless close enough to assassinate the king.
[nq:2]The only solution that I can see at this time ... Are there other action/adventure films that rely so heavily uponflashbacks?[/nq]
[nq:1]The Usual Suspects, Rashomon, Double Indemnity,[/nq]
I don't recall having seen US or DI - thanks, I'll put them on my need-to-watch list.
[nq:1]having a framing story is a pretty common technique, actually. I don't think it's useful to think of these as "flashbacks" since the story is told three times, in three different thematic colors, with three different sets of facts...[/nq]
Framing doesn't bother me at all and they are flashbacks by the simple fact that they're not the present. And, I don't think of them as three different sets of facts as much as one was the version that was supposed to be given to the king, one was what really happened and the "third" was filling in details. All were related by Nameless as opposed to the differing POVs in Rashomon.
[nq:1]For me, the chess game between Chin and Nameless was more than suspenseful enough[/nq]
Um...what chess game? That Nameless was intent on assassinating the Qin king and that the king was intent on not being assassinated and finding out how an unknown lesser dignitary such as Nameless could have possibly killed such skilled fighters as Broken Sword and Flying Moon were only SOP, IMO. I need something more complex such as Robert Redford's role in "Spy Game" to call it a chess game.

Or, was I dozing yet again and missed something else? (Bother!)

See, now I've recalled "Spy Game" - full of flashbacks - not at all sleep-inducing.
[nq:1]...it seemed clear that Chin was crazy[/nq]
Wow. Talk about differences in opinions - I didn't get that he was the least bit crazy at all.
[nq:1]but sharp, and that both he and Nameless had a few tricks up their sleeves...[/nq]
Yes. (Aha! We agree!)
[nq:1]JMO, I'm sad that this movie put you to sleep![/nq]
Me, too! It's a beautiful film. I just wish that I could be as fascinated by it as I have been by others instead of falling asleep as I did. I want to watch it again, but I think, "what's the point if I'll have to struggle to stay awake again?"

[nq:1]I saw "Closer" with a gal pal the other night, and something in the ads made her think it was a comedy.[/nq]
The movie version of "don't judge a book by its cover" should be "don't trust the trailers."
[nq:1]Imagine her unpleasant surprise when about 20 minutes in she realized it was going to bang on every single issue about her still-cooling divorce.[/nq]
Bummer!
[nq:1]And I've totally not gotten movies myself because I just couldn't figure out what they were on about...revisted years later, a big smack on the old forehead and a "doh" for me

[/nq]
Heh. That applies to me and some women

.
[nq:1]Thanks for sharing your reaction--it's a fascinating question to me, how a writer sets his audiences' expectations...[/nq]
Thanks for your response.

Speaking of expectations...

I watched "Cellular" immediately after watching "The Forgotten" last night.
[nq:1]From the cover blurb, I was so sure that "Forgotten" was a psychologicalthriller, a conspiracy between her husband and her ... through most of the first 1/2 of "Cellular" simply because it was so different that I couldn't take "Cellular" seriously.[/nq]
(And whatever happened to Kim Basinger? She looked terrible.)

-- ~~Bluesea~~ Spam is great in musubi but not in email. Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]..[/nq]
[nq:1]Interesting. It's got martial arts, Jet Li and Donnie Yen, an army in action, how could it not be? The ... to call upon the action-directing services of a good friend of his who directed all the action scenes for him.[/nq]
It also has a rich, complex story, a very short training sequence, and very few fight scenes, and those fight scenes are as lyrical (most of them) as they are dramatic. All the leads in the piece except Jet Li have done non-action films as well as action films...

but I'm not saying you were out in left field to have assumed it was an action pic primarily. Just asking that you re-examine that assumption?
[nq:2]And if you didn't expect "an action film" do you think you would have responded the same way?[/nq]
[nq:1]Since it stars Jet Li and Donnie Yen, that's difficult for me to speculate upon, but it's been a l-o-n-g time since any sort of movie's put me to sleep.[/nq]
Yah, well, the first star wars put me to sleep, so I feel your pain

[nq:2]Have you seen the director's other movies?[/nq]
[nq:1]No.[/nq]
Raise the Red Lantern, To Live are where most folks start with him. I adored House of Flying Daggers (there's less talk and a more linear storyline)...
[nq:1]the[/nq]
[nq:2]Um, The Usual Suspects and Rashomon both use variations on this technique...[/nq]
[nq:1]But, "Rashomon" is a story told in flashbacks, also. I don't see how Nameless et al could conspire in a straightforward tale w/o the viewer knowing about the conspiracy since the viewer would be watching them conspire.[/nq]
Ah, I've recently read someone complaining about Usual Suspects along the same lines--I guess I took it for granted that each version of the story we saw (after the second version started, that is!) was what Nameless was telling Chin, a story, not necessarily what happened. Ditto Usual Suspects..
[nq:1]Dang - did my dozing make me miss others? Yes, the conspiracy that put Nameless close enough to assassinate the king.[/nq]
well, there was the first conspiracy to kill Chin (Chen?) and some of the not-real two-person conspiracies...
[nq:2]The Usual Suspects, Rashomon, Double Indemnity,[/nq]
[nq:1]I don't recall having seen US or DI - thanks, I'll put them on my need-to-watch list.[/nq]
Their use of them is MUCH SIMPLER than Hero's, mind you

[nq:1]Framing doesn't bother me at all and they are flashbacks by the simple fact that they're not the present.[/nq]
yes, well, two of them didn't happen at all. I think of a flashback as an isolated scene, not a running sequence with three variations. But it's probably just semantics

And, I don't think of them as three different
[nq:1]sets of facts as much as one was the version that was supposed to be given to the king, one was what really happened and the "third" was filling in details. All were related by Nameless[/nq]
right--every time Chen busts him, he provides a new version, closer to the truth...
[nq:1]Um...what chess game? That Nameless was intent on assassinating the Qin king and that the king was intent on not ... IMO. I need something more complex such as Robert Redford's role in "Spy Game" to call it a chess game.[/nq]
They each lie to each other to see what the response will be, at least once, and they spend the whole thing trying to trick each other. That's more like a family game of poker at my house, but whatever

[nq:1]Or, was I dozing yet again and missed something else? (Bother!) See, now I've recalled "Spy Game" - full of flashbacks - not at all sleep-inducing.[/nq]
I'll have to see that one then, I was warned off it

[nq:2]...it seemed clear that Chin was crazy[/nq]
[nq:1]Wow. Talk about differences in opinions - I didn't get that he was the least bit crazy at all.[/nq]
yah, well, knowing the real historical character (first emperor of China, responsible for the deaths of millions, wacky guy), I may have colored in some facts--still, sending ALL THOSE ARCHERS, wanting to conquer the earth, his approach to fighting assasins and whatnot, seemed mentally healthy? I guess if they are out to get you, you aren't paranoid?
[nq:1]Me, too! It's a beautiful film. I just wish that I could be as fascinated by it as I have ... to watch it again, but I think, "what's the point if I'll have to struggle to stay awake again?"

[/nq]
Oh, you've tried much harder than anyone I know, seriously, you are Film Scholar of the Month! I'm not being sarcastic, I mean it!
[nq:1]Heh. That applies to me and some women

.[/nq]
Yah, it took me SEVEN YEARS to realize that when I ask the husband "what are you thinking?" and he answers "nothing" he's being perfectly literal!!
[nq:1]I watched "Cellular" immediately after watching "The Forgotten" last night.[/nq]
[nq:2]From the cover blurb, I was so sure that "Forgotten" was a psychological[/nq]
[nq:1]thriller, a conspiracy between her husband and her shrink, and got so wrapped up in it that I laughed through ... that I couldn't take "Cellular" seriously.Yow, big paradigm shift required, eh? (And whatever happened to Kim Basinger? She looked terrible.)[/nq]
bankrupcy, marriage, coupla kids, a divorce, but also, being an actress in L.A. seems to age women at about 50% faster rate than other parts of the U.S...I stood right next to Lisa Kudrow not four years ago at a staged reading, and she looked about ten years younger than she does now...not sure if it's the stress, the sun, or what...

Mysti

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1].. It also has a rich, complex story, a very short training sequence, and very few fight scenes, and those ... out in left field to have assumed it was an action pic primarily. Just asking that you re-examine that assumption?[/nq]
No problem, but since it is a conspiracy story, I'd expect the intrigue alone to be enough to keep me awake.
[nq:2]Since it stars Jet Li and Donnie Yen, that's difficult ... time since any sort of movie's put me to sleep.[/nq]
[nq:1]Yah, well, the first star wars put me to sleep, so I feel your pain

[/nq]
STAR WARS put you to sleep?!?!?! No way!
[nq:2]No.[/nq]
[nq:1]Raise the Red Lantern, To Live are where most folks start with him. I adored House of Flying Daggers (there's less talk and a more linear storyline)...[/nq]
But, see, I was fully awake and alert during the flashbacks - it was the present that put me to sleep, all that stuff in the audience hall when Nameless was having tea with the king.
[nq:2]But, "Rashomon" is a story told in flashbacks, also. I ... the conspiracy since the viewer would be watching them conspire.[/nq]
[nq:1]Ah, I've recently read someone complaining about Usual Suspects along the same lines--I guess I took it for granted that ... second version started, that is!) was what Nameless was telling Chin, a story, not necessarily what happened. Ditto Usual Suspects..[/nq]
[nq:2]Dang - did my dozing make me miss others? Yes, the conspiracy that put Nameless close enough to assassinate the king.[/nq]
[nq:1]well, there was the first conspiracy to kill Chin (Chen?)[/nq]
Qin? He was king of Qin, I dunno about his given name.
[nq:1]and some of the not-real two-person conspiracies...[/nq]
Sorry, I'm not following. Do you mean the previous assassination attempts or what Flying Moon was planning if the yellow/red flag of success/failure was shown? Or, the romantic liasons?
[nq:2]I don't recall having seen US or DI - thanks, I'll put them on my need-to-watch list.[/nq]
[nq:1]Their use of them is MUCH SIMPLER than Hero's, mind you

[/nq]
I'm game for anything that doesn't put me to sleep.
[nq:2]Framing doesn't bother me at all and they are flashbacks by the simplefact that they're not the present.[/nq]
[nq:1]yes, well, two of them didn't happen at all. I think of a flashback as an isolated scene, not a running sequence with three variations. But it's probably just semantics

[/nq]
Heh. I applied the KISS Principle.
[nq:2]Um...what chess game? That Nameless was intent on assassinating the ... Redford's role in "Spy Game" tocall it a chess game.[/nq]
[nq:1]They each lie to each other to see what the response will be, at least once, and they spend the whole thing trying to trick each other. That's more like a family game of poker at my house, but whatever

[/nq]
Okay, I see.
[nq:2]Or, was I dozing yet again and missed something else? ... Game" - full of flashbacks - not at all sleep-inducing.[/nq]
[nq:1]I'll have to see that one then, I was warned off it

[/nq]
Yes, please do. It's got the mind games as well as action. Let us know your opinion, okay?
[nq:2]Wow. Talk about differences in opinions - I didn't get that he was theleast bit crazy at all.[/nq]
[nq:1]yah, well, knowing the real historical character (first emperor of[/nq]
Aha, you hold an advantage.
[nq:1]China, responsible for the deaths of millions, wacky guy), I may have colored in some facts--still, sending ALL THOSE ARCHERS, wanting to[/nq]
There were a heck of a lot of archers for that one little calligraphy school, weren't there? But, the fighting skills they were up against warranted them, didn't they?
[nq:1]conquer the earth, his approach to fighting assasins and whatnot, seemed mentally healthy? I guess if they are out to get you, you aren't paranoid?[/nq]
Right. You're only paranoid if you're fearful of a fantasy, not if it's reality, and his clearing the hall so that there wasn't anywhere for an assassin to hide, prohibiting people from being near him, etc., were all very practical defenses.
[nq:2]Me, too! It's a beautiful film. I just wish that ... point if I'll have to struggleto stay awake again?"

[/nq]
[nq:1]Oh, you've tried much harder than anyone I know, seriously, you are Film Scholar of the Month! I'm not being sarcastic, I mean it![/nq]
Thanks

.

There's a river in Egypt...I just can't believe that a movie as beautiful as this is puts me to sleep.
[nq:1]Yah, it took me SEVEN YEARS to realize that when I ask the husband "what are you thinking?" and he answers "nothing" he's being perfectly literal!![/nq]
ROTFLMHO! If you only knew...
[nq:2]I watched "Cellular" immediately after watching "The Forgotten" lastnight. thriller, ... it was so different that I couldn't take "Cellular" seriously.[/nq]
[nq:1]Yow, big paradigm shift required, eh?[/nq]
Huge.

I just finished watching "Cellular" again and while it does have funny moments, it wasn't as comedic as it was last night when I was laughing at just about everything.
[nq:2](And whatever happened to Kim Basinger? She looked terrible.)[/nq]
[nq:1]bankrupcy, marriage, coupla kids, a divorce, but also, being an actress in L.A. seems to age women at about 50% ... and she looked about ten years younger than she does now...not sure if it's the stress, the sun, or what...[/nq]
d) All of the above.

I'll have to go back to another movie, but it seems to me that Basinger's lost too much weight in this one. She appears drawn and haggard even in the happy scene before the bad stuff starts and even though she's a mom and science teacher, not wearing **** clothes, she doesn't seem as bosomy as before.

Thanks!

-- ~~Bluesea~~ Spam is great in musubi but not in email. Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]The extra features revealed that it's Yimou Zhang's, thewriter/director, first foray into action movies and I believe his dramatic backgroundreally hurt it.[/nq]
[nq:1]Did you feel that way about Crouching Tiger? It was Lee's first "action" film, albeit more firmly anchored in the wu xia tradition...[/nq]
It just dawned on me that this isn't the fairest of comparisons. While CTHD may have been Lee's first action film, it was based on a book by Du Lu ****; Lee didn't write it. OTOH, "Hero" was story by, screenplay by, as well as directed by Yimou Zhang. While there were other cowriters, Zhang had a huge amount of influence.

I view my falling asleep as a problem with the writing and, as a wannabe screenwriter, I want to know why because I think I should know what doesn't work so I might avoid repeating the mistakes of others as much as I need to know what works. Since "Hero" is a foreign film, it's not as though I can easily get the screenplay to try to analyze wha'happened to induce me into dozing off.

-- ~~Bluesea~~ Spam is great in musubi but not in email. Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

Usenet · Answer

I loved many of the visuals in "Hero," but like you I found the pacing to be slow, and the plot rather formless.

"House of Flying Daggers" is, for the most part, less pretentious and better -- I also preferred "Raise the Red Lantern." It just seems to me that he was taking "Hero" a little too seriously for what it was.

-Ron

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]But, how could the story have unfolded w/o letting the viewer knowabout the conspiracy from the get-go? That twist and ... getting close enough. Withholding info like that in a typical straightforward action movie wouldn't be tolerated because it'scheating the viewer.[/nq]
I'm not sure I understand your question. We do actually learn that Nameless' cover story is bogus pretty early, and the rest of the movie is about what happens next between Nameless and the King. And the fact that Broken Sword and Flying Snow aren't dead yet, and what really went on between all three of them, is a source of much of the narrative suspense.
[nq:1]Are there other action/adventure films that rely so heavily uponflashbacks? Those that I think of have much shorter flashbacks and the mainaction is always in the present.[/nq]
But the main action *is* in the present. The central question of the movie is, does Nameless kill the king or not? All the flashbacks are there to illuminate that central issue, to show us everything he went through to bring him to that point in time where he has to make that decision.

Or at least, it should*... because the movie doesn't really bear out that theory. The flashbacks really serve to show us the two characters of Broken Sword and Flying Snow, who to me were *much* more interesting people than Nameless. And Nameless is the *protagonist - he's the one who changes the most throughout the story, and it's his decision that is what the whole movie is about.

I think on the whole, the movie suffers from a lack of focus as to whose story it really is. I don't know what I would have done to improve it; it's structure is unconventional to say the least, and much of it doesn't work. But some parts do though - I really liked how the flashbacks portrayed the Broken Sword-Flying Snow relationship. First we see them severely ****** off at each other; then we see them passionately in love. Neither are the entire truth - they are, in fact, both* wildly in love *andseverely ****** off at each other.

HERO is far from my favourite movie, but it is one of my favourite movies to talk about.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]No problem, but since it is a conspiracy story, I'd expect the intrigue alone to be enough to keep me awake.[/nq]
I'm not sure what a consipracy story is, but it's not a suspense thriller like The Conversation or Bourne Identity (at least, I didn't think it was), so I didn't have the same expectations..
[nq:1]STAR WARS put you to sleep?!?!?! No way![/nq]
I think Lucas killed dialog, and Spielberg plot, stopped the new wave in its tracks...but that's just me

[nq:1]But, see, I was fully awake and alert during the flashbacks - it was the present that put me to sleep, all that stuff in the audience hall when Nameless was having tea with the king.[/nq]
Yah, well, i've been in love with the Terra Cotta find since I first heard of it, and know a bit about the "first emperor" of China, so I probably was filling in blanks...
[nq:2]and some of the not-real two-person conspiracies...[/nq]
[nq:1]Sorry, I'm not following. Do you mean the previous assassination attempts or what Flying Moon was planning if the yellow/red flag of success/failure was shown? Or, the romantic liasons?[/nq]
I'm going to have to see the movie for a fourth time now to get the facts right. Nevermind until then

[nq:1]Yes, please do. It's got the mind games as well as action. Let us know your opinion, okay? I'll have to go back to another movie, but it seems to me that Basinger's lost too much weight in this one.[/nq]
See, I think that's part of what ages those poor ladies...the relentless need to have so little body fat that, well, nevermind. Anyway, it's got to be tough to hit your forties in that town...

this was a fun discussion, thanks so much!

I love talking to folks who had the opposite reaction form me about a movie, it really teaches me a lot!

Mysti

Usenet · Answer

I agree that the movie does have wide focus as far as characters are concerned, but this is typical of the Asian films I have seen (HK, Chinese, Tibetan, Mongolian), and is probably a function of a very different world view, where individualism and determinism do not play the same role in most of the societies belief systems.

I've seen HK films where the ENTIRE CAST is killed, and replaced by a new cast, and it worked for me.

And since the movie is ABOUT what a hero actually is, I think the lack of focus on Jet Li was likely deliberate.

I could be high as a kite on this one, however

Mysti

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1].. .. .. s p o i l e r s .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..[/nq]
I've been off watching "Hero" over and over again, taking notes which really help me stay alert. After watching some of "Crouching Tiger," I'm now thinking that it's the music in "Hero" that puts me to sleep. CTHD's music is a lot more varied; in addition to the drums and strings that dominate in "Hero," there're gongs, symphonic pieces, and even the cello changes pace. One of these days, I'll watch "Hero" again with the volume down, subtitles on, and one of my CDs on the stereo in the background to see what effect a change in music has.

In the meantime, I thought I'd share some of my notes.
[nq:1]From start to the beginning of the end credits, "Hero" is 1 hr. 33 min.There are, as I count them, ... is accurate, the action scenes have a total running time of ~29 min. comprising nearly a third of the movie.[/nq]
About the colors:

1. Scenes that happen in realistic color are events known to the king, his people, the public in general including the viewer. They are accurate.

2. The B&W fight scene between Nameless and Sky occurs only in their minds.

3. The Red scenes are the first story that Nameless tells the king. It's mostly a lie. My theory is that the walls, flooring, furniture, sand in their practice boxes, window panes, what-do-you-call the hanging matting, their faces, leaves (when Moon fights Flying Snow), even the paper of the scroll, appear more natural or in a shade of red depending on the extent of the lie.

4. The Blue scenes are what the king conjectures the story to be.

5. The White scenes are the true story. It begins in flashback then continues, merging with the present.

6. The Green scenes are Broken Sword's backstory.

There are five flashbacks:

1. When Sky is at the chess house.

2. The Red story.

3. The Blue story.

4. The beginning part of the White story.

5. The Green story - appearing within the flashback of the White story. Yes, this is a flashback within a flashback.

I have a couple of questions/observations about certain details:

1. In the chess house, what game is that with the black and white stones? It isn't Chinese chess, xiangqi, but is something else, the name of which I can't remember.

2. How did that piece get broken off of Sky's spear and, more importantly, how did Flying Snow get it? She had it in the Red story which was mostly a lie so, maybe she never really had it since the king proposed that she and Broken Sword didn't even know Sky and I didn't notice Nameless refuting it. If so, that was a nice touch on the part of Nameless - attention to detail - to include it in his Red story.

3. How would the writer script the color schemes - "everyone wears red/blue/white/green" or something like that?

-- ~~Bluesea~~ Spam is great in musubi but not in email. Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

Action movies, in particular "Hero" ("Ying xiong") - w/ spoilers

Top answer

Get the Weekly English Kit 📬