Abhorring wombs

Question

This has been buzzing around in the back of my mind since Christmas. In "O Come all Ye Faithful" the most usual form of verse 2 has "Lo! he abhors not the Virgin's womb"
That's a translation from the "Adeste Fidelis" original

"Deum de Deo, lumen de lúmine,
gestant puellae viscera
Deum verum, genitum non factum"
where "gestant puellae viscera" is the relevant phrase and it seems to mean something more like "born from the Virgin's flesh".

So, where did the "abhorring" come from? Was it common to abhor wombs in general? Just virgins' wombs? Just that Virgin's womb? And why do we keep singing that version? Isn't it insulting?
John Dean
Oxford

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]Was it common to abhor wombs in general?[/nq]
Only in Catholicism

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[nq:1]This has been buzzing around in the back of my mind since Christmas. In "O Come all Ye Faithful" the ... general? Just virgins' wombs? Just that Virgin's womb? And why do we keep singing that version? Isn't it insulting? [/nq]
http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/o/c/ocomeayf.htm says "..shuns not..." Yes, usually *** would shun or abhor (shrink back from?) virgin wombs in the sense that usually virgins were not blessed with pregnancy. He made an exception, though, for Mary.
http://www.readersdigest.ca/christmas/kind christmas/o come.html doesn't even acknowledge that verse. Perhaps the verse was added by someone who wanted a little more drama out of Christmas songs.

http://www.stpetersnottingham.org/hymns/ocome.htm has more to say about the possible origin of that verse. I'm sure its simply a translation snafu. "Abhor" is a rather strange choice.
http://www.comeallyefaithful.co.uk/ offers what appears to be orgasming women lip-synching the words to the song, more or less. A good bit of editing went into this one. The women were clothed; at the least they were clothed up to the part where I closed the window.
Mike

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]In "O Come all Ye Faithful" the most usual form of verse 2 has "Lo! he abhors not the Virgin's ... "gestant puellae viscera" is the relevant phrase and it seems to mean something more like "born from the Virgin's flesh".[/nq]
The subject is viscera 'inner parts (of the animal body)', and the verb is gestant 'they carry, they're carrying': so, literally, 'a girl's innards bear'; or, all together, more felicitously, 'A maiden's womb bears a *** from ***, a light from Light, a true *** begotten, not made'.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]In "O Come all Ye Faithful" the most usual form of verse 2 has "Lo! he abhors not the Virgin's ... "gestant puellae viscera" is the relevant phrase and it seems to mean something more like "born from the Virgin's flesh".[/nq]
The subject is viscera 'inner parts (of the animal body)', and the verb is gestant 'they carry, they're carrying': so, quasi-literally, 'a girl's innards carry'; or, all together, more felicitously, 'A maiden's womb bears a *** from ***, a light from Light, a true *** begotten, not made'.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]This has been buzzing around in the back of my mind since Christmas. In "O Come all Ye Faithful" the ... in general? Just virgins' wombs? Just that Virgin's womb? And why do we keep singing that version? Isn't it insulting?[/nq]
Insulting to whom?
Though the song is quite late, it reflects earlier theological controversies that shaped Christian language, especially that of Christian theology vis a vis gnosticism. For Gnostics, *** was pure spirit, and abhorred anything material, especially something as gross and messay as the human reporductive system. The gnostics believed the material worlds was created by an inverior deity, and salvation consisted in escaping from it. On contrast to this, Christians believed that *** is human after all, and became a messy brat with healthy little bowels etc. To paraphrase John 3:16, *** so loved the world that he consented to have his nappies changed by a human mother.

The following quote may help:
The difference between Orthodoxy and Gnosticism.
Source: Pagels 1981:174.
Orthodox Christians were concerned - far more than gnostics - with their relationships with other people. If gnostics insisted that humanity's original experience of evil involved internal emotional distress, the orthodox dissented. Recalling the story of Adam and Eve, they explained that humanity discovered evil in human violation of the natural order, itself essentially "good." The orthodox interpreted evil (kakia) primarily in terms of violence against others (thus giving the moral connotation of the term). They revised the Mosaic code, which prohibits physical violation of others - murder, stealing, adultery - in terms of Jesus' prohibitions against even mental and emotional violence - anger, ****, hatred.
Agreeing that human suffering derives from human guilt, orthodox Christians affirmed the natural order. Earth's plains, deserts, seas, mountains, stars and trees form an appropriate home for humanity. As part of that "good" creation, the orthodox recognised the processes of human biology: they tended to trust and affirm sexuality (at least in marriage), procreation and human development. The orthodox Christian saw Christ not as one who leads souls out of this world into enlightenment, but as "fullness of ***" come down into human experience - into bodily experience - to sacralize it.

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]This has been buzzing around in the back of my mind since Christmas. In "O Come all Ye Faithful" the ... in general? Just virgins' wombs? Just that Virgin's womb? And why do we keep singing that version? Isn't it insulting?[/nq]
I don't know that "we" do. I found that verse on a webpage and I don't recognize it at all, although I recognize the "Sing, choirs of angels" and the "Yea, Lord, we greet Thee" verses. There's another one about shepherds in lowly fear that I don't think we sang, either.

Best Donna Richoux

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]This has been buzzing around in the back of my mind since Christmas. In "O Come all Ye Faithful" the ... in general? Just virgins' wombs? Just that Virgin's womb? And why do we keep singing that version? Isn't it insulting?[/nq]
'Veiled in flesh the Godhead see'. Wossat about then? I mean, I know what it means, but its not exactly Cole Porter, is it?

DC

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--

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[nq:2]This has been buzzing around in the back of my ... why do we keep singing that version? Isn't it insulting?[/nq]
[nq:1]I don't know that "we" do. I found that verse on a webpage and I don't recognize it at all, ... Lord, we greet Thee" verses. There's another one about shepherds in lowly fear that I don't think we sang, either[/nq]The Latin has seven verses, which appear in full but in translation in The English Hymnal and probably other hymn books. A very substantial note (four columns in small print) in The New Oxford Book of Carols explains that the anonymous 18th century original has four verses (O come all ye / *** of *** (the "womb" one)/Sing choirs of angels/Yea Lord we greet thee) of which the last is properly sung only on Christmas Day itself.

"See how the shepherds" and "Child for us sinners poor" were added by a French abbé in the early 19th century, and seem to me to be in more "classical" Latin, as is the "Lo, star-led chieftains" verse supplied by anon. in the later 19th century. The usual English version is basically by F.Oakeley 1802-80 (the original four verses) and W.T.Brooke 1848-1917, but often altered as most hymns eventually are.
The "Virgin's womb" verse is verse 2 in every UK hymn book I've ever seen, of all sorts of denomination, and all have "abhor" - even when the text has been altered in other details. I'm interested and surprised to learn that it isn't familiar to Donna.
Alan Jones

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]The "Virgin's womb" verse is verse 2 in every UK hymn book I've ever seen, of all sorts of denomination, ... the text has been altered in other details. I'm interested and surprised to learn that it isn't familiar to Donna.[/nq]
It's interesting to me that you consider it to be so common. (Reminds me of the overlap between UK & US hymns and how Churchill took advantage of that.)
I don't find a facsimile of the "Pilgrim Hymnal" of the Congregational Church, to see what it was I grew up with.
I just searched the Web for "yea lord we greet thee born" and found about a thousand pages. When I add to see how many have that line without the verse in question, it takes off about half. Typical:

http://www.grandpapencil.com/cmas/carols/come.htm
http://www.guitarhymns.com/christmas/ocomeallyefaithful.html

Best Donna Richoux

Abhorring wombs

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